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Tue, Sep. 8th, 2009, 02:40 am
WTF of the day

a movie about a man living in the midst of tel-aviv, who has (at least) 32 wives and 89 children and the authorities are unable to do anything about it.


Wed, Sep. 9th, 2009 05:15 pm (UTC)
talash: Re: :)

And we shouldn't eat/fuck/make lampshades out of "something" because we are aware that that particular "something" feels pain and suffers. Why would a sane person knowingly cause suffering?
[This is where we venture into vegetarianism, yes? =)]

because he may put his own joy above the suffering of a "thing."

e.g. I will enjoy my hamburger even if the cow suffered and if the choice was between not having the cow suffer and me not to have the hamburger, I'd have the hamburger any time. Moreover I do not care much for the cow's suffering and do not want to investigate whether the cow that is now my hamburger suffered or not. Furthermore, I don't like people investigating the suffering of cows which hamburgers are made of, because this invariably tends to increase the price of said hamburger.

Wed, Sep. 9th, 2009 05:18 pm (UTC)
lotus82: Re: :)

Well, I understand eating animals. Food chain, health reasons, etc. Plus we kind of need to eat to survive, yes?
But we don't need to fuck animals in order to survive, right? We don't need to make lampshades out of them, right?

Wed, Sep. 9th, 2009 05:22 pm (UTC)
talash: Re: :)

What is "to need?" We don't "need" to eat meat in order to survive either; we may perfectly well do without, being vegetarian etc. I eat meat because I like meat and enjoy it. Why shouldn't someone fuck animals if he likes it and enjoys it?

Wed, Sep. 9th, 2009 05:31 pm (UTC)
lotus82: Re: :)

I will pull out the "health conditions" card again. There are diseases which limit your diet quite severely; if you limit it further by becoming vegetarian, or even worse, vegan, you're at a very serious risk of becoming malnourished.
Sex, on the other hand, is not a survival prerequisite in the way nutrition is.

Wed, Sep. 9th, 2009 05:36 pm (UTC)
mme_n_b: Re: :)

So, do you believe that everyone who does not have these conditions should be a vegetarian?

Wed, Sep. 9th, 2009 05:42 pm (UTC)
lotus82: Re: :)

Would be a good idea if they were, yes. But again, this is not something that can be written up as a law.

Wed, Sep. 9th, 2009 05:44 pm (UTC)
mme_n_b: Re: :)

Forget laws, for a while, they are too connected with politics. Do you consider it a moral obligation of all humans to stop using all animal products that are not directly necessary for their survival (not health. survival.) ?

Wed, Sep. 9th, 2009 05:52 pm (UTC)
lotus82: Re: :)

I think it's a moral obligation of every single person to do their bit to minimize suffering.
However, "doing their bit" has about a million definitions. I say that some people have to eat meat for health reasons and that in Siberia, for example, people have to wear fur and leather because otherwise they'll freeze. Some people would say, fuck the animals, who gives a crap. I've also encountered fanatic vegans who claimed that I personally should stop taking my medications because they contain animal ingredients and were tested on animals; when I said I would die without them, they claimed I should rather die than take those meds. [It was a guy who used to be buddies with my husband; when that guy told me about how if I'm a "true" vegetarian, I have to die and not take my meds, I asked him if he's willing to repeat that claim face-to-face with my husband. He shut up.]
Basically - lets minimize the damage we're doing, lets not be fanatical about it.

Wed, Sep. 9th, 2009 05:57 pm (UTC)
talash: Re: :)

I think it's a moral obligation of every single person to do their bit to minimize suffering.


Wed, Sep. 9th, 2009 07:37 pm (UTC)
lotus82: Re: :)

Why not?

Wed, Sep. 9th, 2009 07:42 pm (UTC)
mme_n_b: Re: :)

Because it's an obligation, it should have a better reason than "why not". Obligations require higher standards than non-obligatory actions, because they imply a restriction of liberty.

Wed, Sep. 9th, 2009 06:03 pm (UTC)
mme_n_b: Veganism and survival

It's possible to wear cotton wool and synthetic fabrics in Siberia, and in any case "not freezing" comes under the heading of "survival". Would you say, that it's wrong to live in Siberia if you cannot do so without wearing fur? Should they move? Work extra to afford synthetics? Have fewer children to minimize the need for clothing? I've given you survival. Let's discuss convenience.

Wed, Sep. 9th, 2009 07:49 pm (UTC)
lotus82: Re: Veganism and survival

No, I don't think people should move away from Siberia, work more or have less kids. It's a perfectly good place to live in and I don't see a reason to vacate it when the world's overpopulated as is.

Wed, Sep. 9th, 2009 08:01 pm (UTC)
mme_n_b: Re: Veganism and survival

So, what you're saying, is that a certain level of inconvenience, while short of the "survival" guideline, is still sufficient as an excuse to use animals as a source of labor/food/body parts. Right?

Wed, Sep. 9th, 2009 05:35 pm (UTC)
mme_n_b: Re: :)

O reason not the need! Our basest beggars are in the poorest thing superfluous.
We eat meat and wear leather and keep hamsters and make feathered lampshades because we enjoy it.