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Tue, Sep. 8th, 2009, 02:40 am
WTF of the day

a movie about a man living in the midst of tel-aviv, who has (at least) 32 wives and 89 children and the authorities are unable to do anything about it.

W.T.F?!

Wed, Sep. 9th, 2009 09:29 pm (UTC)
mme_n_b

You are trying to say that bringing a gun on a plane is possession, not use. Let's try it that way. We already have a precedent. Shall we say, that a gun may be brought into public spaces unloaded just as a dog may be brought into public spaces muzzled or a horse with a bag under its tail? This way we do not disturb possession, but make use impossible.

Of course, one could, if one wished to use it, bring bullets on board separately. One could also subject people bringing guns and bullets on board to extra scrutiny, perhaps charge them for a security attendant to sit next to them. Make the charge high enough, and the problem will disappear.

Wed, Sep. 9th, 2009 09:41 pm (UTC)
talash

What if person A brought a gun, person B brought bullets and they would combine the two on board?. Or, better yet, if guns were difficult to practically use with the restrictions, bring a knife on board instead. Knives were enough for 911 terrorists, afaik.

Make the charge high enough, and the problem will disappea

Doesn't seem like terrorists have a shortage of money, really.

What I'm trying to imply is-- there are cases where possession may be inseparable from potential use and distinguishing between the two is impractical. I mean, do you really think what you suggest would be feasible, as opposed to the blatant "no, you don't need a gun on a plane and can't bring a gun to a plane" that you have today? I think not.

Wed, Sep. 9th, 2009 10:01 pm (UTC)
mme_n_b

Charge both A and B. Still better than the current system of restricting manicure scissors. And use the money for a personal security guard, which is more helpful than restricting guns anyway.

Yes, it would be feasible. It would also be difficult, which is why I started by distinguishing "efficient" from "good".

Wed, Sep. 9th, 2009 10:17 pm (UTC)
talash

I'm not saying restricting manicure scissors is good. That's just plain crazy. But yeah a gun is not manicure scissors and no, it wouldn't be feasible. If I were a terrorist and I could bring a gun and bullets into a plane, I'd find a thousand ways how to use them no even if there was an air marshal next to me. Example: A has gun. B has bullets. We have air marshals next to them. C, D, E, F, G and H don't have anything on them, but once on board they start to make a general mess. Whom do you think the security's attention will turn to? Yup. And then A and B will combine the gun and the bullets and fun will be had by all.

What I'm saying that yes, in this case restricting guns is more simple, efficient and yeah, good because it may, with a very high probability, prevent a lot of potential harm. What you're suggesting is complicated, not feasible and won't work.

Thu, Sep. 10th, 2009 12:27 am (UTC)
mme_n_b

We would need a full-scale feasibility study. I believe it would work. Expensively. Admittedly, your way is more efficient. However, efficiency is not under discussion.

Thu, Sep. 10th, 2009 12:59 am (UTC)
talash

What is under discussion is what is called "common sense." And common sense says that 1. It wouldn't work 2. If it had some chance to work, it would be very, very expensive, like you yourself, admitted, and therefore make the ticket price much more expensive. 3. It would therefore not be "good" according to your own definition, because with higher ticket prices less people would (theoretically) be able to travel or would be able to do so less frequently, so their freedom of movement would be harmed. 3. You have a very good chance convincing people that the restrictions on manicure scissors are bad and should be abolished and there is a good chance that yes, eventually they will. But I just can't conceive a situation like you describe, in which the theoretical freedom of a handful of crazy people who (theoretically) prefer to have their guns with them on board (and probably don't even exist in practice) will be put above the real need of all the real people who travel by air to do so with reasonable safety (and no you're never going to convince me that aircraft safety with guns on board will ever be equal to safety without, for the mere reason that if there are no guns on board I can guarantee that no gun will be fired on board an aircraft, a thing that, try as I might, even with the best possible security I cannot guarantee 100% if guns and bullets are allowed) and at a reasonable price. and 4. Regardless of your beliefs the de-facto situation is that there are some things governments and societies think they can intervene in, even if they are done with full and informed consent of all the parties directly involved-- and for some strange reason most people agree that yes, in some cases societies and governments should indeed have such a right.

Thu, Sep. 10th, 2009 01:31 am (UTC)
mme_n_b

Common sense is usually neither. Please, let's stay away from cliches.

1. Unknown
2. Probable, but irrelevant
3. Freedom has nothing to do with "free". Expense is not a limitation of freedom.
4. "Crazy" in context is an ad-hominem argument. You know better than that. Or should. Because of this I will not respond to this point.
5. We were discussing a normative situation. Historically governments intervene in all sorts of things. It's a fact, and not under discussion. So what? This is an attempted argument ad verecundium, your second fallacy. Want to take a break and come back to this tomorrow?

Thu, Sep. 10th, 2009 01:47 am (UTC)
talash

1. The only way to check this is to conduct an empirical experiment and I wouldn't do this if people's lives were at stake.
2+3. I think it does because if some basic services like basic food, clothing and yeah, transportation cost more than a working person can reasonably afford, then yeah, it impedes freedom.
4. delete "crazy", leave "a handful of people who probably don't even exist" and respond to the point please.
5. yeah, I should probably go to sleep, so with this I bid you good night.

Thu, Sep. 10th, 2009 03:38 am (UTC)
mme_n_b

1. Not that you or I could conduct one in any case. Of course, we could go with historical precedents, but those are too uncertain.
2. Since when is a plane flight a "basic service" on the same level as food and clothing? And how, precisely, is freedom denied by starvation?
4. Any freedom impeded is impeded for all people, not just for those who currently care to use it.
5. Good night :)

Thu, Sep. 10th, 2009 04:54 am (UTC)
talash

2. Since governments tend to provide all sorts of "services" for the taxpayers' money. Services like police, fire, health services and yeah, for some strange reason most governments have, for some odd reason, something called "ministry of transportation." Which regulates all sorts of stuff pertaining to, well, transportation, how much money goes to road maintenance, fuel prices and yeah, price of public transport as a function of that.

also, you can't have much freedom if you starve, so for some reason governments find it necessary to ensure you have some minimal amount of money to not.

3. You cannot have a society without impeding some freedoms of some people some of the time.

Thu, Sep. 10th, 2009 05:51 am (UTC)
mme_n_b

2. I am not aware of any governments that provide planes as a public service to average citizens.
2.5 Freedom and starvation are not in any way connected. There are a number of reasons why some governments provide minimal insurance from starvation, but freedom is not one of these.
3. You cannot have an ideal society. This does not prevent me from considering which course of action in a particular case would bring the society closer to the ideal.
3.5 And btw, given the way you defined society above this statement is false.

Thu, Sep. 10th, 2009 12:20 pm (UTC)
talash

2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_airline

(not directly and less so today; still, aviation wouldn't have been the way it is without major government investments and efforts. and yeah, if you want to be an airline today, you still have to comply with tons of government rules and regulations,including price. and yeah, fuel price is regulated).

2.5. In Israel the basic law is that of "human dignity and freedom" and one is seen as inherently interrelated with another on the most basic level (the implicit assumption is that you cannot have one without another and vice versa). You are welcome to attempt to convince me those aren't connected.

3. Which leads me to the question: what is your ideal? That there be no intervention whatsoever in any affairs of any individual unless it is absolutely certain that he is going to hurt others?

3.5: refine definition: "any group of people who agree that they are members of the group, that imposes or may impose rules on those members".

4. In our non-ideal society some intervention from the government is, unfortunately, necessary. I'm interested what should be the limits on this sort of intervention.

Thu, Sep. 10th, 2009 03:40 pm (UTC)
mme_n_b

2. You're clutching at straws here. Planes are not buses. They aren't even subways. Nor is this important to your thesis.
3. That every individual be free to do anything he wishes as long as his actions do not harm other individuals.
3.5 Hmmm... so, a dissident is not a member of a society?
4. As low as possible.

Thu, Sep. 10th, 2009 04:11 pm (UTC)
talash

2. Explain the theoretical difference and provide arguments for it.
3. Define "harm."
3.5. Refine definition from "impose certain rules" to "impose certain rules or at least make a bona fide attempt to impose them"
4. Yes that is clear, but I'm interested in the actual value of "low".

Thu, Sep. 10th, 2009 05:17 pm (UTC)
mme_n_b

2. The aim of most publicly provided transportation is to assist in work-related commute. Unless enough of the population uses a plane to commute the plane is not a social necessity.
3. harm
3.5 Your problem is not with "attempt", it's with "agree".
4. Circumstantial. In the case under discussion (sex and reproduction) should be 0.

Thu, Sep. 10th, 2009 05:44 pm (UTC)
talash

2. It happens more frequently than you think, especially in USA. google "extreme commuting" and you'll find more than enough examples of people using a plane to get to work each week.

3. bad definition because, for example, restricting sex between adult, sane and consenting members of the same family will not (presumably) harm them physically or mentally.

3.5. The agreement is with being a member of a society, not necessarily with all the rules imposed.

Thu, Sep. 10th, 2009 06:21 pm (UTC)
mme_n_b

2. Let's get back to the classical variation of this line of argument and try to decide how many rocks make up a pile.
3. Restricting sex between two consenting and desiring adults will not harm them mentally? Really?
3.5 Can I have the full definition again, please, with the corrections included?

Thu, Sep. 10th, 2009 06:34 pm (UTC)
talash

2. And yet people who want guns in airplanes even though they may be an empty group are important enough. What is bad about this one? And yeah, really, it's a much bigger group than the former.

3. There are a lot of people whom i probably would want to have sex with, but for various reasons can't or couldn't or won't ever have sex with, for various reasons. Somehow I didn't notice significant mental harm because of that. You will have to explain how and why those people would be hurt.

3.5. Let's try "any group of people whose members agree they belong to the group and that imposes, or at least attempts to impose some kind of a ruleset on its members."

Thu, Sep. 10th, 2009 06:42 pm (UTC)
mme_n_b

2. I answered this one yesterday. A restriction of freedom is always for everyone.
3. The fact that you are not harmed does not mean anyone else wouldn't be. For all I know you have been permanently scarred by Stallone's lack of interest and are concealing it. Generally, people prevented from consummating love and/or desire with consenting partners do suffer because of it. Romeo and Juliet, anyone?
3.5 Nice. Still relies on voluntary membership, and still not worth protecting in itself, but much nicer.

Thu, Sep. 10th, 2009 01:04 pm (UTC)
talash

And, just for the record, on a not-quite-related note-- the word used for "dignity"-- "kavod"-- in that law-- like is the case with many words in hebrew also has several other meanings-- among them "honor,", "decency" and "respect"). So yeah, I guess that's one example of Sapir-Whorf in action. Also, you tend to hear "dignity" and "freedom" together so much in the context of discussing, mentioning or referring to this law in this country in the concept until it's almost axiomatic that the two concepts are closely interrelated. So yeah, you might have a very hard time convincing me otherwise ;)

Thu, Sep. 10th, 2009 03:44 pm (UTC)
mme_n_b

What law? What dignity? Do you mean the welfare laws?
I'm not actually going to even try proving that dignity and freedom are unconnected. Proving a negative is a chump's game. If you want to play - prove the positive. :)

Thu, Sep. 10th, 2009 04:05 pm (UTC)
talash

If you want to play - prove the positive

I won't. "Freedom and dignity are inherently interrelated" is an axiom for me. I must have something as an axiom, so I might as well have that, if anything.

Thu, Sep. 10th, 2009 05:14 pm (UTC)
mme_n_b

OK, in that case let's discuss something else.

Thu, Sep. 10th, 2009 04:26 pm (UTC)
talash

What dignity?

Also, can't define "dignity" more precisely than wikipedia; I do have some axioms about it though:

1. It exists.
2. It is a human right as fundamental as freedom
3. It is far more than just welfare laws.
4. Dignity and freedom are closely interrelated and cannot exist without one another.

Thu, Sep. 10th, 2009 05:18 pm (UTC)
mme_n_b

Am not going to discuss axioms.